Primarily for UK folks

[chickenfeet]

Peter Calvocoressi argues that one of the great failures of Franco-British politicians in the 20s and 30s was failing to realise that in Fascism/Nazism they were dealing with something new and different. Rather they tended to see Hitler, Mussolini and their supporters as "rather uncouth conservatives". This had me thinking about the BNP and their recent somewhat limited successes. So here's the question:
[Poll #729543]

Comments

[a-d-medievalist.livejournal.com]

or rather uncouth conservatives in the mould of the followers of Hitler and Mussolini? I answered, since I reckoned I might be up enough on the subject.

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

Hitler and Mussolini and their followers weren't "conservative" except possibly in the debased sense that "conservative" and "liberal" are used in contemporary US usage. They were in every sense revolutionaries. Irrational, violent and contemptuous of Enlightenment values but in no way supporters of rule by the traditional elite or any other aspect of the dynastic state mechanism,

[a-d-medievalist.livejournal.com]

Sorry -- I meant to leave in the inverted commas! I meant that, if their contemporaries indeed saw them that way (and for Mussolini the ex-communist, that's a hard thing to get one's head 'round), which many did -- it's one of the reasons that they weren't seen as being truly dangerous till it was much too late (if ever) -- then the comparison with the BNP might be apt. What they are and how they are seen may well be two different things.

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

hen the comparison with the BNP might be apt. What they are and how they are seen may well be two different things.

Agreed. Though I have yet to see any signs of really radical fascist tendencies in the BNP. They seem far more the spiritual heirs of "disgusted of Tonbridge Wells" than of Hitler.

[a-d-medievalist.livejournal.com]

No. Plain and simple racist thugs who know how to work the system is probably a more accurate description ... until they have managed to make themselves an 'acceptable' part of the political scene.

Or maybe I've been reading too much Sheri S. Tepper?

[knirirr.livejournal.com]

I get the impression that they are "disgusted" as you say, but could still be classed as fascists (http://www.la-articles.org.uk/fascism.htm). I doubt that they've actually studied any fascist theory, though. They've probably just come up with a typical statist manifesto and put a racial (though the NF would quibble) nationalist spin upon it.

[gillo]

You need a slot for "total bastards" too....

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

In my mind both "fascists" and "uncouth conservatives" are subsets of "total bastards". In fact, conservatives can be quite couth and still fit that description as Baroness Torturers Apologist of Grantham proves.

[melted-snowball.livejournal.com]

I know it's a commonplace among folks from the US like me, but given how we were all raised to believe that people talking with an upper-class British accent were just so much classier than us, it does startle to hear folks with that accent saying such terrible things. Maybe I just pay more attention to UK politics nowadays..

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how having a posh accent would prevent someone being a total bastard. After all, the Ivy League produces at least its quota.

[melted-snowball.livejournal.com]

Oh, I know. It's just this brain encoding that's completely stupid.

[a-d-medievalist.livejournal.com]

Well, most US people can't tell posh British accent from British accent -- you wouldn't believe how many people I've met who think Cockney and South London and seriously strong Scouse are posh!

[rhythmaning.livejournal.com]

Like gillo I think you need something else in your poll - a third way, perhaps.

"Unthinking, total bastards" would work for me.

I don't think they can be called "fascists" because I don't believe they have the considered politics behind them (sorry, it is early, and I really can't think of the right words!).

The BNP for me really represent the politics of hate; and I find them quite hateful.

[rhythmaning.livejournal.com]

That's it - a lack of ideology. What do they really believe in?

But then aren't people saying that politics is no longer about ideology?

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

But then aren't people saying that politics is no longer about ideology?

Politics has to be either about ideology or a contest for power among established elites. Deemphasising ideology is a strategy for excluding political participation beyond the elite (and hasn't New Labour done a fine job of that!). The story of European Fascism was it forced itself upon the elites (in Italy and Germany and Spain) while failing totally in Britain and mostly in France. The BNP has no chance of establishing itself in the arena of elite politics. It's only chance of success (and charismatic that a mercifully thin one) is by an appeal to the masses and that needs a leader and ideology. Neither of which it appears to have.

So, I can see them as hating and hateful and as recipient of a few protest votes from people who feel threatened excluded from the political process but I can't see them being really successful short o the political and economic system imploding.

[f4f3.livejournal.com]

Another call for a third option. The BNP probably hug to themselves the secret notion that they are fascists, and the heirs to Adolf and Benito, but in general they are nothing more than racists - a substantial portion of them would be ready to form the club-waving mob if the standard was raised, and someone gave them an excuse, without having any rigorous political theory. But I suspect that's the case for all revolutionary parties.

[itchyfidget.livejournal.com]

Indubitably fascists. What is their flavour of nationalism and racism if not fascism?

The Now Show had an awesome skit the other week in which they made up the Daily Mail headline: IMMIGRANTS WANT ALL YOUR STUFF, AND THERE ISN'T ENOUGH TO GO AROUND.

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

What is their flavour of nationalism and racism if not fascism?

I'm not sure that it's very different from the racism and nationalism that one finds at any Tory Party conference, just minus the hats and the golf club blazers. There is nothing inherently fascist about racism and nationalism nor does fascism have to be racist (I don't think the Falange in its heyday was any more racist than any other party of the right in Europe).

[oursin.livejournal.com]

Neither, though I'm sure they attract members of both these groups.
(Has also started me wondering what a 'genuine fascist' is, in modern rather than 30s context...)

[chickenfeet2003.livejournal.com]

I've been wondering the same thing.

If I had to come up with a set of "timeless" characteristics it might include:

A charismatic leader
Extreme nationalism (probably underpinned by some quasi-scientific notion of racial superiority but not nesessarily race hate)
A tendency to violence
A desire to replace state institutions with party or party controlled ones
A rejection of logic in favour of will

I would expect a modern fascist movement to avoid things that made it seem too obviously like the 1930s version so I'd expect anti-semitism to be toned down and rather less of the uniforms and parades.

Applying those criteria, I have a hard time seeing the BNP as Fascist though Le Pen and his gang in France would be much closer.